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Osiris' Rogue Guide v3(New)
Stealth FAQ (EU)
Grinding Guide 1.0
Oi Rogue! L2sap.... nub
I was reading in the forums the other day about somebody who thought that rogues has a distinct lack of crowd control and this got me thinking. The main thing I hear now when I am in instances with other groups is, "sap", "sap the healer" so on and so on.
On the other side, in the olden days (ok, pre TBC so not that old) rogues were all DPS. All you would see in chat would be "LF DPS and the rogue would get the job, unless CC was needed. Personally I have always loved the control that a rogue has, even more so than DPS and in a PVE situation we still have that.
Look at what we have for CC
I think that anyone who says we have a lack of CC needs to rethink, that includes rogues and all the other classes who are putting together a group. In fact, I think that 'new age' rogues who are just starting to 'rogue' will be of the CC mindset more so than the DPS mindset.
What do you guys think..... DPS or CC?
On the other side, in the olden days (ok, pre TBC so not that old) rogues were all DPS. All you would see in chat would be "LF
Look at what we have for CC
- Gouge
- Blind
- Kidney shot
- Cheap shot and
- Sap
I think that anyone who says we have a lack of CC needs to rethink, that includes rogues and all the other classes who are putting together a group. In fact, I think that 'new age' rogues who are just starting to 'rogue' will be of the CC mindset more so than the DPS mindset.
What do you guys think..... DPS or CC?
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posted by ntrailz at 2/11/2007
Cerias Shadows
Zyk
Osiris
Khormid
20 Comments:
DPS or CC? Both to be honest, perhaps even at the expense of some DPS - let me explain why.
Heroic mode hurts. Heck, even some of the normal difficulty instances have pulls where you would much rather there were less mobs to deal with and lets be honest, you can't rely on finding a Mage or Warlock when you need one so we need to look to Sap - and for preference until such time as a "proper" combat build is required that means imp sap.
Personally I go 41/13/7 to get Imp sap, Precision, and Imp S&D into my Mutilate build and it doesn't really hurt dps that much (even if its not as high as possible) because I would much rather gain the time it takes for a sap to break in order to control the mobs, and get some focussed DPS happening than have more dps with less control over loose mobs.
Personal preference I know, but its paid dividends thus far and I'm more than happy to switch back to combat when I don't need to run any more Heroic Instances (yeah, trash hitting me for 8k certainly underlines my desire for more CC to be frank :D )
Both! There are mobs rogues can and can't sap, so it is best that we be prepared to do both DPS or CC on demand. If we can't sap a certain mob because:
1. They see stealth (there's plenty of those).
2. They are not humanoid
Then our job in a group shifts immediately to DPS.
I agree that rogues have a substantial amount of control over mobs. I think that the rogue class in general can deal with an add in an instance better than any other class just between blind, gouge, and distract(if you notice a pat coming). I don't however think that rogues are that good of a CC class in end game instances. Even as soon as Shadow Lab I've had trouble with sapping w/o imp sap on the 6 mob pulls where I am forced to vanish after sapping even after having a shield and popping sprint to get back. I mean this isn't a big deal right now since I'm still getting the sap off and living but from what I hear about heroic mode you will be two shotted after sapping without imp sap.
I can't even begin to count how many times my blind or gouge saved a healer with unfortunate aggro.
In many cases that was my girlfriend, so that also has the fortunate side effect of me not sleeping on the couch that night.
The movement up the talent tree and change to 100% really makes a big difference for sap now.
- Snitch
I fully agree.
People would reconsider taking in a rogue if they knew how many healers you can save with a well timed KS. And thats only 1 ability.
If you played a rogue before you just have to start thinking logic instead of sticking to your old "optimized DPS cycle".
I feel that we are viable in both areas. While rogues may not be the all time DPS chart toppers that they once were, our DPS is still nothing to laugh at. And as far a lack of crowd control, I use natur cast bar to keep track of my (and others) CC's. There have been several times I have opened a pull with sap, broke off DPS when the mob broke, blinded him, and gouged again when the blind broke all the while DPS'ing the party target in between. That is 45 seconds of viable control on a mob to keep them out of a fight. Those that moan about a lack of CC are really moaning about a lack of 1 button easy-mode CC like poly. Learn to play your toon.
I'm not just jumping on the bandwagon here. But, rogues are very versatile in instances with some pretty hearty dps and some decent cc. You mentioned them in your post, so we all see how many we do have, not to mention if they go engineer there are even more. So I'm going to have to pick both CC and DPS. Roges FTW!!
Personally, even in PVP I prefer to CC rather than outright kill half the time.
As a sub rogue, Imp. Sap is just too good a tool to ignore. I've managed to win ABs simply because the Horde will send 5 guys to the farms to try and find me while I'm sapping them left and right.
Sap is one of the best distractions in PVP, and many people forget that. I get crap all the time when I do that because "I'm not accomplishing anything." But, I ignore those comments when me team can take a node virtually unopposed because the opposite side is too busy trying to find one guy.
Of course, if I see some clothy just standing around by himself, I'm gonna ambush-bs-evis him, but that goes without saying. :p
So, personally speaking, I would give CC a higher priority than DPS, because, after all, as a rogue, I have the unique ability to pick my battles, and if I'm not grinding or farming, why bother fighting in the first place when I just just beat some dude over the back of the skull with a blackjack?
I agree with "anonymous". On a number of pulls I have used Imp Sap on one mob, then stun-locked another mob (CS -> Gouge -> KS -> Blind -> Gouge, etc. and then evasion-tanking in worst case scenario) to occupy another mob while focus fire burns down the rest. Also, crippling poison works great (use it on your MH and melee mobs will usually get burned down before they make it to your casters/healers). I know we all love to maximize our DPS, but sometimes we have to do what is best for the group. Especially in 5-mans.
Ok Im rogue with 30/0/31 build. Its more PvP then PvE build but i dont care about my dmg done so much. TBH you cant Crown Control and DPS at once. Well you can but you will break balls. For example "blade flurry" one of best dps move for rogues can be use only when you got tank druid cus warrior dosent matter how skilled he is cant keep aggro on all mobs at once even if you guys focus dps. So i picked crown control on it and my party members keep ask me about join them on heroic mode cus its all about it. You know you can keep backstab on targer and turn on SnD to improve dps but you can also make it easy with control all mobs arround and do not let healer get single hit so its alot more fun for me. Best regarts Assasin
exactly what I think, imp sap is very valuable these days, also simple stunn tactics on nontanked mobs.
I enjoy stunning a mob while others make so much DPS and the tank has other things to do.
I also start using crippled poision in instances to enhance my ability. A mob breaking out of control. I just switch to him apply poison with shiv and go on with stunning my mob. I work with 21/33/7 these days and am very happy with this build. Although I miss Combat potency I enjoy the flexibilty.
Do rogues have a heap of CC abilities, yes! Do these work in a Pug instance with people that don't understand rogue abilities or know what to look for, No! The simple fact of the matter is that all our abilities have little to no indication that they are in affect, and once they are used there is a cooldown.
Example One: Target beating on healer, mage sheeps it. Some member of the party hits the sheep, it breaks. Mage is able to resheep until the offending member stops their attacks.
Example Two: Target is beating on healer, rogue blinds it (or uses any other ability). Some member hits the target out of blind, rogue is on cool down and has used a reagent.
Example two occurs to be a lot in instances with pugs, it simply is not looked for by pug members. Even in guild runs I have to say over vent that I am going to do something so that people will leave it alone.
In conclusion, if our stuns are broken we are on cool down before we can use it again. Therefore you need to make sure its not broken, in a good team this can be very useful, in a bad one its just a waste of time.
Btw imp sap is very useful, I am talking for of cc during a battle.
Personally I have a tendency to get the best of cc and dps which seems to see me top the damage charts and also get great kudos from the guildies.
I am a 11/7/43 build and love nothing more than a group of mobs to play with.
Its a simple but effective routine that we use nearly every time. Shadowstep behind a mob and sap.
2 options here depending on the situation.
Number 1 - immediately target your next mob and engage as the group pulls.
Number 2 - (to be used if the battle needs to take place closer to the main party), wait 20 seconds for shadowstep to cooldown, re-sap then shadowstep to next target after the group pulls back.
And as for groups of casters or healers, i love em! Many a time have i been seen charging towards a casting foe with the gouge button on spam. Interupt is the name of the game, and is something we do best. We are lucky to have this ability to do insane levels of damage and keep the cloth wearers at bay, why not use both. Who cares if we lose a second or two of dps because of the odd interupt....we will make it up on the next backstab anyway!
And if we are talking about non humanoid mobs, or those bloody tracker hounds, well..... its dps time baby with a few cheapshots thrown in to help along the way.
We are a very flexible class and need to have a flexible mindset when playing it.
Not to mention, BLIND. 10 seconds of CC, is still CC.
"And as for groups of casters or healers, i love em! Many a time have i been seen charging towards a casting foe with the gouge button on spam." -- Jonin
Without trying to be rude, I'm not quite believing this statement. Are you saying that out of this group of casters not one has the ability to slow you down or, even worse, root you in place? Are they all fainting at their keyboards at the sight of a rogue charging or what? You must be engaging some really poorly played casters if that's the case.
Yes rogues are an amazing tool to have in a group. Imp sap is really a must for heroic instances, knowing that vanishing after each sap is impossible. Your healer will have to spam you and go up on the aggro list before your warrior can start working. I am at the mo 41/13/7, and at the mo I have more fun that ever because not only can I dish out good DPS... I can sap, blind, gouge and offtank pretty much everything that can be stunned, dodged or kicked.
We also do an amazing kitting capacity with Shiv Crippling and Fleet Footed if u have it.
Imp Kidney Shot makes mob go down so fast!
I also had 'thumbs up' for having quick recovery...it really helps.
Rogues are really an amazing tool that benefits the whole group any many ways and not only to simply add DPS.
Try to find the downside of having a rogue in your grp? Their are none!
Painmaster - Kul Tiras (EU)
Rogues have more difficulty in using their CC than other classes. The Sap must be done out of combat and we do it at a greater risk than other CC as we have to sneak up them. Sap takes better dicipline of the party to perform correctly. This really hurts in PvP where some dumb warrior charges in ahead and refused to let rogues be the first in to CC.
Blind is on a 5 minute timer for most of us. Sheep, not so much. A mage may continue to sheep a target with diminishing returns while with Sap, once the target is in combat, thats all folks.
Our CC is also single target. Distract is an acception here but it is limited to 2 seconds and out of combat.
I have to honestly say, rogues CC is below other classes with Sap/Blind, however Cheap and Kidney Shot do offer us nice CC in melee.
I agree with the last poster that our CC is sort of the red-headed step child of the CC options, but that's still no reason not to use it. I have used my Imp Sap in almost every dungeon run I've done in TBC and my groups appreciate the extra 20 seconds to hold a mob out of combat. Add one other real CC class and you can cut a 3-pac down to one.
I also make a point to use my stun abilities as much as I can during combat. First of all - I don't pull aggro when I use my combo points for KS instead of SnD or whatever. Second, I can keep the mob from hitting anyone else and taxing our healer. I see this as s strong specialty that other classes may not have - the ability to interrupt mob attacks during the fight. Sure mages/hunters can freeze but the mob is still hitting the tank or casting on a squishy. With my KS or CS and I immobilize them completely for a few seconds. If I'm in a good group we can often take down that mob within the CS/KS window and have next to no damage to anyone.
So many of our abilities allow us to stun our target and minimize damage and we use them all the time when we solo to protect ourselves. But when we go into a group some of us tend to forget that and go for the mega DPS numbers. This just hurts the group and overwhelms the healer who has to keep our sorry butt alive while we congratulate ourselves for pulling aggro constantly. I prefer to be a team player, not an uber leet pain-in-the-arse. Maybe this is why I get invited back and you don't ;P
Heh, glad to hear support for the supporting rogue here. I personally as a rogue don't think we're worth our spot in 5 mans without imp sap. I love it and travel with it everywhere. (everybuild) As far as DPS vs CS/KS I tend to flex with the Mob and the healer/tank. On Pug it's almost always stun control and do my best to keep the aggro off. But if I have my warrior who I trust I'm usually all out DPS becasue I know he can keep the aggro and we just want to down the boss. I'm also a huge fan of rupture for boss fights where often us melee DPSers are on Add duty, build up 5 CP Rupture, and then run off to deal with the adds until it runs out, that way we get both DPS and CC :)
I have always favored control over raw power. This however always related to pvp.
In a group, well.. tbh.. they take me in to do dmg not much else. Altho I still favor getting some CC in there before the action gets on.
Distract followed up by a sap, can be very useful on mobs. Distract on players ..well.. to stop them for 1 or 2 sec... or just to mess with their heads.
Sap.. very useful in both pve and pvp. I use it excessively, especially when im deep sub. Nothing like taking the healer out of the battle for a BG-Node.
I guess... all in all.. I have always favored CC.
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